(no subject)

[arcanetrivia]

Um. Is it me, or is this Severus/Minerva art piece from this year's hp_beholder a dead ringer for this Severus/Hermione piece by Perselus?

I sure hope they got permission for the reference.

edit: My original meaning was "got permission from Perselus", but pennswoods advises that it's likely they simply both happened to use the same ref photo: http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kyfp64JHYM1qb3dcpo1_400.jpg

Since Perselus didn't cite the ref either, I'd always assumed the pose/composition was original from scratch, which would have made it rather rude for someone else to come along and draw a near-copy as a fest entry.

Comments

[venturous]

it's pretty much the same pose.

[delphi]

I'd be more inclined to think that both images were based on the same photo source, as I've seen at least two other pieces of Snape fanart with a similar pose, with the artist of one of them citing a photo ref.

[arcanetrivia]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kyfp64JHYM1qb3dcpo1_400.jpg apparently, according to pennswoods. (I wouldn't have had a clue where to start looking.) Perselus did not cite a reference either, so I assumed it was original from scratch.

[delphi]

Mm, that is indeed a nice photograph. I notice that in the comments of Perselus's post, the artist of one of the other drawings I'm familiar with commented that they might have used the same reference. I'm not an artist myself, so I'm not up on the latest etiquette, but I was under the impression that most people don't cite photo references. (For instance, a huge amount of mainstream comic book art these days is based on references for that realistic style, and I've only seen it brought up in the cases where artists blatantly reuse shots or, in the case of one artist in particular, when someone uses porn for references. *g*)

[acatnamedeaster]

If a photo is referenced heavily and used in a commercial work from what I understand it can be a copyright violation if the owner of the photograph in question chooses to pursue it.

While many artists use reference you're not supposed to directly copy your reference but rather use it as a guideline to what a particular pose/light source/object looks like, this is why it's best to use multiple references in a single piece of work. Direct copying of a photo and passing the work off as your own is pretty frowned upon.

But with fanworks it's hardly an issue since generally the work is not being done for profit.

[delphi]

Good to know - thanks for the clarification!

[arcanetrivia]

Profit is of course irrelevant in terms of whether something is infringing; it means it's less likely to be discovered, though.

[arcanetrivia]

It may depend on the site. People are usually fairly diligent about it on deviantArt, probably because most people who make stock and references are pretty picky about how people use them.

[enotsola]

You mean not all comic artists use porn for reference? Maybe watching http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/ has been skewing my view.

[delphi]

*laughs* I was thinking of Greg Land in particular, who not only makes superheroines look like porn stars but actually traces porn actresses' mid-coitus poses for action scenes, but thank you very much for the link to that Tumblr.

[torino10154]

I assume you took your concerns to bethbethbeth?

[arcanetrivia]

No, because I wouldn't want to cause a stink and turn out to be wrong. See comment below from pennswoods, who recognized the photo reference it would seem they both happened to have used. (Perselus didn't cite it either, so I'd always assumed it was an original pose.)

[pennswoods.livejournal.com]

Both are based on a photo reference: http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kyfp64JHYM1qb3dcpo1_400.jpg

I think this is a common practice for artists. I have used the same photo reference myself.

[valkyriur.livejournal.com]

^That

[arcanetrivia]

I didn't know there was a specific known reference out there. I was concerned they might have actually copied from Perselus (who, in turn, does not cite the ref either - so I thought it was original).

[pennswoods.livejournal.com]

No worries. I only knew about it because I used it myself last year and then came across Perselus's piece later and realized she must have used the same one since the positioning was so similar.

I think this is why some fests require artists to provide links to their references. Your comment is making me think I should be careful and always provide my references, but I'm usually too lazy to keep track of them and just copy them to a file and print out to view without making note of the URL.

[mimimanderly.livejournal.com]

I, too, use things like magazine ads or photos I find online as references for my drawings, but seldom give creds since I change a lot of details from the original photo (the scene, the subject's physiognomy, etc.) And there are lots of times when I use several different reference pics for one drawing. I think it's such a common practice among artists that, unless we are drawing it exactly as is, it doesn't even occur to us to give creds (especially if it's something like a perfume ad).

[arcanetrivia]

These two pieces are drawn nearly as-is. (Dunno if you clicked the three relevant links.) Not, like, lightbox-traced literal copy, but extremely similar (and thus extremely similar to each other). It's not that I didn't know artists used photo refs ever, but that I didn't know there was a shared source at root here. The only other place I'd seen the pose was Perselus's SS/HG piece there.

[akatnamedeaster.livejournal.com]

Inspired perhaps but there's enough difference between them that it doesn't seem like a rip.

For pro-work it's good form to cite photo reference if it's used but in fan work I think it's one of those things that really isn't too big of a deal.

[arcanetrivia]

I didn't know there was a specific photo involved here. I was concerned they might have actually copied from Perselus.

[accioslash.livejournal.com]

Gotta admit I'm surprised by this post considering how much fan art you've seen. Almost all the fanartists I know use photo references. I can't believe you haven't run into anything like this before.

[arcanetrivia]

I did not know there was a specific reference involved. I was concerned they might have actually copied the pose from Perselus rather than that they both happened to use the same photo ref.

[accioslash.livejournal.com]

I feel like I'm quite possibly misunderstanding the issue, but it's just a similar pose. I think most artists who are drawing a specific pose in a realistic style will Google images for it (lovers hugging in bed) to make certain they aren't drawing two right hands or that the lighting is correct. The biggest issue I see with photo references comes when it's pretty clear someone has traced them to create the line art. But, honestly, that's a fairly common pose and the artist styles are so very different, I can't see how it could be seen as a ripoff. Obviously YMMV.

[arcanetrivia]

The issue is not using a photo reference. It is that, since I recognized the pose from a previous piece of fanart (and though the results are obviously differentiable because of the medium and style, the poses really are essentially identical, just a few differences in faces, fingers etc), I was concerned they might have been actually copying it without having asked permission or giving credit. The almost certain "culprit" of the common reference has been unearthed, so, no problem. But I had no way to know otherwise.

[irielle.livejournal.com]

It was different enough and a common enough position for lovers that it didn't feel like a ripoff to me. It was interesting to see the photo reference that Pennswoods shared. As a fan of artists, as opposed to being an artist, I really appreciate hearing about how they go about their work.