Snapecast 26

[arcanetrivia]

I feel a little annoyed with what I hear as the opinions expressed in the "Snape &" segment in this last Snapecast.

I'm one of the people who didn't get really fanatic until Deathly Hallows, but it's not that I didn't like Severus before. I did, I really did. I always thought he was an awesome character, where "always" is defined as "since I picked up the series", which was probably between GoF and OotP since I remember thinking, "oh, there's a movie coming out, I should read at least the first book first." It's just that my "awesomeness!" was casual, as were my thoughts about the whole series.

After reading GoF, I had mostly put it out of my mind until OotP, and the same for HBP and DH. Not that I forgot the plot arc totally, but I wasn't spending time analyzing and fanficcing then, so as to keep it constantly in the forefront. (HBP, however, immediately became my favourite when I read it, and still is; I don't care what you may say about how it is part of the downward slide of which DH is the culminating sand-pit).

When I read DH, I experienced it at the time as "wait a minute; I think now I actually care enough to devote significant CPU cycles to all this mess *adds it to the list with MST3K and HHG* ", and then, around that seed of Severus Snape, it all crystallized backwards. My perception of him, even my memory of my perception of him, was altered (or should I say enriched), but that among many things. I found myself developing actual opinions about things for which I previously had only very casual "eh, ok / eh, not so great" feelings.

I still feel very dumb for not picking up on all the fandom theories before the big reveal, but then, until after said reveal, I didn't care enough to actually put my mind to it, anyway. (OTOH I am terrible at picking up on hints to adventure game puzzle solutions and on interpersonal subtext. So maybe I wouldn't have got it even if I had cared.)

But I digress. The point is this is making me feel like less of a proper Snape fan, as if my sheer n00bness wasn't enough by itself. I had no idea there was any series called Harry Potter and the Anything at All at the time that PS/SS was released.

I can only speculate, but to be a "DH convert" (even though that's not accurate, since I already liked him) almost seems more damning than if I were one of the people for whom it was Alan Rickman. (It took me forever to join up the dots on that one; I didn't go "oh yeah, him!" until the Hitchhiker's movie in 2005.)

I understand what they are saying about a division in fans (those who are happy through HBP, and those who weren't fans until DH and are generally more accepting of DH), but I feel uneasy being in an apparent middle ground. I wasn't fan enough to listen to something like Snapecast until DH, and what little we see in that book, I mostly do accept. Some of it I raise my eyebrow with "ehhhherrrm, there's got to be something more complex there; or have you forgotten this isn't a flat character?", but I've said before and will probably say again that the Severus-Lily dynamic appeals to me on such a deep level that I can't help but like it.

It seems like the "accepted" thing for the established fan to do is not to like it, or to accept it in terms of friendship only, and that wanting/liking anything more marks one out as "oh, you're one of THOSE".

I don't want to be one of "THOSE". Yanno?

I'm not really taking it all that personally (that would be silly, anyway -- it's not like they said "Esme is a fat alien slime and a pedophile and eats poopoo for dessert", to paraphrase an acquaintance of mine). I just wanted to get my thoughts out.

I do hopefully agree with the "final thought" that kids who later reread this series as adults might wonder how they could have been anything but Snape fans. ;)


ETA: Yes, issues with joining a group late and being valued less because of it. You guessed right; now here's Don Pardo to tell you what you've won!

Comments

[sylvanawood.livejournal.com]

I think you worry too much. ;) I don't think anyone would throw you into the same box as 'those' - whoever they are. There are a lot of people who hated Snape and are now all teary Snily shippers. I don't think that applies, and you make your opinion clear enough (in a good way) not to be thrown into a box.

So you like Snape/Lily and many other Snape fans don't? So what? The idea of romantic Snily existed since PoA, some liked it, some didn't.

And you have a life outside of fandom? Oh my, you are very strange! ;)

[pennswoods.livejournal.com]

It's always unfair to present a dichotomy like this - as your post suggests, it lumps too many people together who really don't belong. I think what I've noticed and what has surprised me since DH is the number of e-mails we've started getting from listeners who indicated that they thought Snape was evil and one of their least favorite characters before, but that since DH and since the Snily was revealed, they've realized how awesome he was. These were HP fans who actually hated Snape?!

This is quite a different relationship with the character than what you've had.

[arcanetrivia]

These were HP fans who actually hated Snape?!

I would find that a little odd,too, but then people do do 180s like this when the fact that makes everything clear gets revealed, in any situation. *shrug*

I certainly never thought Severus was "evil". That just didn't make any sense. Mean, cruel even, yes, although I find myself a lot more forgiving of that nowadays. It seems that if you get to be his friend, or just don't rub him the wrong way, even, that you get to see a whole other side which is very likeable (I think) even if in a kind of grumpy, cynical way. I find it very hard not to like people who are intelligent and witty, even if I think they are kind of jerks in other ways (a few of my high school and college friends come to mind...).

As for killing Dumbledore, it was obvious to me even as a casual reader that what happened on that tower was planned and "OMG evil!Snape works for Dark Lord TRUFAX" was not a sensible response.

I think the worst thought I had about Severus was that after first reading of Snape's Worst Memory, I thought he had had genuine blood-prejudice (although even at the time I thought "well, he must have grown out of it, then") and was really a rather nasty person to call Lily names like that. (I think the reader is supposed to compare it mentally to Draco and Hermione, and we're supposed to be biased against Draco.) Of course now it's clear there were a lot more things going on below the surface.

[arcanetrivia]

There are a lot of people who hated Snape and are now all teary Snily shippers. I don't think that applies

No; I liked Snape and am now a teary Snily shipper. ;)

I didn't ship anyone at all until actually getting into fandom, and that mainly because that's how content is organized (considering fandom as a giant filesystem), it seems, primarily by people's favourite characters and ships.

And you have a life outside of fandom?

I do? Where? Did you see which way it went? Did you get its license number?

[feyandstrange.livejournal.com]

I would love to attempt some sort of study "proving" that all the people who hate later Snape and Snilly are also die-hard shippers of gay!Snape.

And don't get me started on the bizarrity of all these women-girls in fandom who write hardcore but utterly unrealistic ubergay porn, and describe all the female characters - particularly those who have the damn nerve to express any canon interest in the males - as "fat" and hideous and horrible and controlling and anti-gay and WTFF. Do these people totally hate their own gender or what?

Or has fandom already hashed that one out and I just don't pay enough attention?

Why can't Snape be bisexual, people? For that matter, why can't Dumbledore? One data point is not a damn lifetime or preference, and it's not an on/off switch.

...I know, I should just take my bisexual polyamorous porntastic self over to the Torchwood fandoms and shut up. But I think there's some points in there.

[sylvanawood.livejournal.com]

Ah, yet another box. You can ship hetero Snape and still hate Snily because you're less than impressed with Lily, not women in general.

[arcanetrivia]

I would love to attempt some sort of study "proving" that all the people who hate later Snape and Snilly are also die-hard shippers of gay!Snape.

I dunno, I like gay!Snape too. I don't think I care what orientation he's given so long as he's wanted and preferably getting some. ;) Actually, I prefer stories where it's not made a point of at all (except for internal "wait, does this I like boys (too)?" sorts of stuff). Just show me the relationship or the sex; I can deduce from there, thanks.

Or has fandom already hashed that one out and I just don't pay enough attention?

Umm... I don't know. I haven't read any stories that sound like what you describe. Well, I know I have read unrealistic gay porn, but a lot of porn is unrealistic. To a point I think it's supposed to be; it's fantasy after all. But I haven't seen this "fat ugly controlling women" thing. (Although people have wondered that about JKR herself, for slightly toned-down versions of the reasons you mention.)

[nemesister.livejournal.com]

I have to say that I love these people and praise their existence - the ones who hated Snape and are teary eyed Snily shippers now and call him brave and awesome. It means that learning the truth made a difference to a lot of people and it means that many average readers really appreciate Snape for what he is! <3 Even if they took their sweet time to understand!

[arcanetrivia]

Heheh, I suppose there is that.

[bernie-laraemie.livejournal.com]

Pah, you're too awesome to be slated as "one of those."

So much awesome. Your summaries win so hard.

[arcanetrivia]

*chuckles* well thanks!

[arcanetrivia]

Well, pennswoods and I at least are mutual LJ friends, so in a sense, yes (i.e. I wouldn't want to be in some major tiff with people on my flist), but probably not quite what you meant here. More is that I am not the type of person with the strength of character required to express an unpopular opinion. I prefer to avoid arguments whenever possible, and would rather hedge and concede (or just keep my mouth shut) so as to still be included.

But I don't always know what type of reaction other people will have; would they think less of me if they knew? ("They" in a very broad general sense, whatever the opinion in question is. I am not casting aspersions on the Snapecast staff specifically here, but using them as a kind of "pulse" of the, er, Underground ;) at large.) So I find having a minority opinion to be somewhat of a worrying and saddening position. If nothing else it means more trouble finding people to share enjoyments with.

[arcanetrivia]

After all, they have repeatedly mocked and patronized any assertion that Snape did not die at the end of DH

Really? I didn't get that impression. Of course, I have only listened to the last three and the first one or two (I decided to start at the beginning -- a lot of that is quite laughable now!), so maybe it's in between July 21 and the first one I have heard.

[arcanetrivia]

Maybe that was their way of dealing with their own grief. Perhaps they were in the anger stage and taking it out on other people. ;)

I think picking over the canon and finding ways he could have survived is more bargaining than denial -- you are trying to argue your case with "God" (JKR) and saying "but if just this-this-this, then you'll make him alive, right?"

[arcanetrivia]

I foresee discussion as ardent as with Tolkien and his letters, various unfinished/unpublished stuff, etc. etc. as to how canon everything is. I wonder if it will get worse after she dies and hidden stuff comes to light (and/or will her children get as protective as Christopher?).

I don't mind accepting interview details which are simply factual (e.g. people's birthdays or wand woods), but I am very leery of ones which are interpretative or telling us about her supposed intent. "Hey, lady, that ain't what you wrote, so shut your cake hole" is my answer to that if I'm in an uncooperative mood. ;)