(no subject)

[arcanetrivia]

This has got to take the biscuit for the strangest inappropriate dialogue tag I've seen. (Like "Sure," Harry smiled or "I don't know," Hermione frowned. You can have these expressions while you speak, but they are not acts which can, of themselves, produce speech.)

"Good," Harry copped a feel.

O.o

eta: In hindsight I think this is probably either a typo or just being a bit sloppy with a comma splice. They did get it correct in the three preceding lines, using commas for "[...]," Harry laughed and "[...]," Severus groaned and a period for "[...]." Snape blushed. Still, it was funny.

Comments

[boundbooks]

I cannot even imagine how that would work to produce sound. Amazing XD

[arcanetrivia]

I can - but not sound from Harry!

(What is the sound of one hand feel-copping?)

[acid]

Hmmmm. I'm going to play devil's advocate about treating action tags the same way as dialogue tags and quote Lynne Truss' Eats, Shoots & Leaves on this: "... so many highly respected writers adopt the splice comma that a rather unfair rule emerges on this one: only do it if you're famous."

Also, depending on the context, that particular case may also be a candidate for one of the 'you don't expect me to stick a semicolon in there just for that' exceptions. For example: "When fairly short independent clauses express contrast, a comma splice is often the most effective way to punctuate the sentence."

Fascinating stuff, action tags. Googled for the past hour, still can't find anything official or detailed on them (blogs don't count).

[arcanetrivia]

I think really it was just a typo. They got it right in three other preceding lines (using a comma for "laughed" or "groaned" and a period when it was "blushed"). But it was funny.

[acid]

Hee. I dunno, to me all rules about action tags seem pretty subjective so far. And the shorter the sentence is, the easier it seems to excuse away that comma.

Anyway, this post started a long discussion of punctuation with my co-writer and you are to blame. :P

[arcanetrivia]

Muahaha, my evil plan is finally beginning to work! Soon everyone on Earth will be speaking of SEMICOLONS!

[teddyradiator.livejournal.com]

I'm terrible about speaking with the wrong words. Smiled, frowned, scowled. But you do see it done that way, sometimes. But I agree, 'copping a feel' is not only wrong, but just shabby.

[arcanetrivia]

I'm terrible about speaking with the wrong words. Smiled, frowned, scowled. But you do see it done that way, sometimes.

If you mean that someone has a certain expression on their face as they say something, you want a progressive phrase:

"Sure," Harry said, smiling.
"I don't know," Hermione said, frowning.

"Smile" and "frown" and the lot are not speech-emitting acts.

But I agree, 'copping a feel' is not only wrong, but just shabby.

I think it was really just an error, a typo or being sloppy with a comma splice, and not intentionally having the meaning that Harry somehow uttered those words by copping a feel. But it was funny.

[brewingtrouble.livejournal.com]

God... I recall reading a spork of a Snarry fanfic of that variety where the author CLEARLY had something against using the word "said" (and incidentally had a hard-on to refer to Harry as "the Gryffindor" ever second sentence.) I think it was called "Deserving" and probably should be held just a few tiers below My Immortal for lulzworthiness.

It was the one that immortalized the line "I hate that you have a cock. I hate it! I hate that I am married to someone who has a cock!" and really, what more can you say about that?? XD

[brewingtrouble.livejournal.com]

found the spork. Makes me chuckle every time I see it.

[arcanetrivia]

oh my!

[akatnamedeaster.livejournal.com]

Ha! Thank you for posting the link, it nearly made coffee shoot out of my nose (especially the sporking of Chapter 2)!

[szaleniec1000.livejournal.com]

It gets better. Well, worse.

[akatnamedeaster.livejournal.com]

Boy, does it ever! I've made it as far as Chapter 23 and I can't wrap my head around anyone actually liking this thing legitimately. It's completely bizarre and poorly written.

And thanks to you I can't stop imagining Alan Rickman saying "butt cheeks"! ;)

[arcanetrivia]

You've edited this comment so many times I've now read like five different emails which contained variants on the phrase "Alan Rickman saying 'butt cheeks'." LOL

[akatnamedeaster.livejournal.com]

Ha! Now you too can have Alan Rickman saying "butt cheeks" playing in a loop in your brain!

I fail at posting, sorry. I always type and post too quickly for my own good. :P

[szaleniec1000.livejournal.com]

In his Snape voice, of course.

[arcanetrivia]

Or that guy who did the impersonation in the "it gets better" video.

BUTT.

(very long pause)

(goes to get a sandwich)

(comes back)

CHEEKS.

[szaleniec1000.livejournal.com]

Thanks for pointing me to that video. It's made of epic win. (Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBsg1urLN7I) for those who haven't seen it.) XD

[arcanetrivia]

Really I should have put a question mark on "cheeks" because sometimes he ends sentences with a bit of an up-tone which is hilarious. Butt. (long pause) (very long pause) (shyfoxling goes to get a coffee as well) Cheeks...?

I read through an awful lot of spork posts on your journal last night (I blame you for making me stay up past a reasonable bedtime!) and I was a little nervous to see how many times you mark out POV!fail. Usually I stick to third-person limited but I've tried a few times with third-person omniscient. Is it that you consider it a bad idea, or just fraught and difficult to do right without really jarring switches of POV mid-sentence? I would think that having one POV in one paragraph and another in another would kind of be par for the course, but now I worry. Do you need a strong separate narrator to carry such a thing?

For example, the fic I wrote for Wankfest earlier this year, Flogging It (4600 words, NC-17 but vanilla, Severus/Sirius in the sense that they masturbate at each other; given what you've sporked I figure you have quite a strong enough stomach for it, even if you wouldn't read it for your own enjoyment, but just thought I'd be clear what's behind the click) contains passages like ... well actually, I'm having a hard time finding an example of changing gears very quickly. It kind of sways back and forth between Severus's and Sirius's P's of V in broader strokes. The closest might be this:

Sirius turned to look at Severus properly, and forgot his irritation. "Oh, brilliant," he said, a smile blooming on his face. "Hey there, hot stuff!"

"Fuck off."

"I'm not joking! Black leather looks good on you. I'll have to think of some other variations on the theme in future."

"Do fuck off."

Sirius merely gave him another bright smile and beckoned him over to the bike, which Severus dubiously approached.

Where it's Sirius forgetting his irritation, but then Severus feeling dubious. Anyway, I just wondered what your position/advice was on such things. I would actually be interested in seeing the narrative voices post you mention now and again about wanting to write.

[szaleniec1000.livejournal.com]

That example works precisely because of the broad strokes. It's easier to change POV in the middle of a scene when we're only getting their surface thoughts. In fact, it reads as though Severus feeling dubious isn't a switch to his POV so much as Sirius picking up on his demeanour, or possibly an unseen narrator watching both characters.

The deeper and closer the POV, the more jarring it is when it shifts, and that's where the fics I've been sporking fall down hard. A strong narrative voice independent of the characters helps a lot there, as does a keen eye for where someone else's perspective might enhance the narrative.

I'd agree with your intuition about paragraphs. You don't want to be switching POV without at least starting a new paragraph, just as you'd start a new paragraph for a new speaker in dialogue. It fits in with the general purpose of paragraphing in written English: to organise the text so it's easier to read.

I would actually be interested in seeing the narrative voices post you mention now and again about wanting to write.

I've actually started writing it, but I don't know when it'll be ready to post. Watch this space. :)

[arcanetrivia]

I'd agree with your intuition about paragraphs. You don't want to be switching POV without at least starting a new paragraph, just as you'd start a new paragraph for a new speaker in dialogue. It fits in with the general purpose of paragraphing in written English: to organise the text so it's easier to read.

On closer readings I did find a couple examples where two different POV sentences were right next to each other, but they were in different paragraphs, yeah. As you say, it's like differentiating speakers and it just seems natural to put in a break in most cases. Phew, glad to know I wasn't racking up automatic fail points. ;) I am not an epically wonderful writer by any stretch but I like to think I don't fall down on the basics, at least.

[arcanetrivia]

A Line So Fine (also kind of smutty, Severus/James) was also an attempt at something kind of omniscient, and might have some better examples of shifts close to each other, like

Damn it, he's tempted to wank right in front of Snape just to get it over with.

Severus is panting and looking back at him warily. "If the Head Girl only knew what her Head Boy was getting up to," he says, trying to deflect the line of inquiry from territory that could swiftly become very humiliating.

[arcanetrivia]

...oh my!

I think in this case it was either just a typo (since they got it right in the three preceding lines) or being a bit sloppy about a run-on sentence.

[szaleniec1000.livejournal.com]

and incidentally had a hard-on to refer to Harry as "the Gryffindor" ever second sentence.

This was particularly amusing/annoying in scenes where Harry wasn't the Gryffindor. I think the impulse to use epithets comes from the same place as refusing to use "said": the idea that readers will stop reading (or buzz you a la Just a Minute) if you dare to repeat any word. I think a lot of English teachers simply tell their classes that repetition is bad, full stop, but we were already getting a more nuanced view when we did GCSE.

[brewingtrouble.livejournal.com]

Nonetheless, it was an epic spork of an epically BAD fic. Thank you. XD

[szaleniec1000.livejournal.com]

Glad you liked it!

[arcanetrivia]

Constructions that include "teen" (referring to Draco as "the slender blond teen" for instance) especially annoy me. It sounds so prissy and, I dunno, "outside-in"? The kind of term one finds used in news articles ("blah blah blah was found among children and teens ages 6 to fourteen..."), rather than how people really refer to themselves or to others in normal speech, which is usually how I think of the narrative voice: someone is speaking aloud, telling me this story. And no one uses epithets to refer to people in natural speech unless they don't have any alternative because they don't know someone's proper name or title.

[szaleniec1000.livejournal.com]

Exactly. It creates distance between the character and the narrator (especially jarring when the narrator is another character who's close to the one being described) and in doing so distances the reader from the characters as well.

[libby-drew.livejournal.com]

*dies*

copped a feel? Really?

It might be my new favorite (not a) dialog tag.